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Licence

Apr 2, 2012 at 7:40 AM

Hi all,

i need help with the licence...

Here, on wpftoolkit.codeplex.com is licence set to MsPl - so i can use it in close-source commercial app. But i saw somewhere:

 


 

Copyright (C) 2010-2012 Xceed Software Inc.

(...)

This program can be provided to you by Xceed Software Inc. under a proprietary commercial license agreement for use in non-Open Source projects.

(...)

 


 

So, if i want to use it, i CAN buy commercial licence (with support etc), but otherwise i can keep MsPl? That phrase "for use in non-OpenSource" is a bit confusing...

 

Thank you for your answer.

Editor
Apr 2, 2012 at 6:33 PM

It's multi-licensed. On CodePlex, the toolkit is offered under the MsPL license. If you prefer or want MsPL, then you're all set.

With the copyright notice we are just clarifying that the intellectual property is owned by Xceed and that if you want another kind of license like, one that provides representations, warranties and indemnification for example, or another that provides standard proprietary terms, Xceed offers that.

The "for use in non-Open Source" refers to MsPL and other licenses offered on CodePlex that have terms that affect your own app's licensing requirements. If you're cool with MsPL terms and conditions on how you distribute your commercial product, then the other license options will not be needed.

Apr 13, 2012 at 4:28 PM

I have to admit that these license/copyright changes concern me. WpfToolkitExtended has become a part of my development workflow, but now I'm afraid that now that ownership is transferred to XCeed that we are going to face a situation in the community like when Lutz Roeder transferred ownership to Red Gate. I believe Brian wanted this to stay a community project, but it already seems like XCeed is getting ready to snatch the rug from under us (see the ommission of the TokenizedTextBox for example).

Please tell me I'm paranoid.

Editor
Apr 13, 2012 at 8:34 PM
Edited Apr 13, 2012 at 8:34 PM

There have been no changes whatsoever to the licensing. It always was and remains MsPL.

It is not even possible to "snag the rug" from under anyone, because everyone that downloaded the project has the rights from MsPL and they cannot be taken away. MsPL is incredibly open, I believe the project can not be stalled by anyone. If Xceed doesn't work hard and continue to have this CodePlex page be the go-to place for the Extended WPF Toolkit, anyone can fork it and continue it in another page or place (while retaining the copyright symbol and headers in the source code, but so what).

However, Xceed has a lot of WPF controls we have made over the years, and preparations are being made to add more and more of our controls to the toolkit, again under MsPL. I think (and hope) everyone will continue to use and enjoy our toolkit simply because it is where the most updates, bug fixes and new controls are being added. I also hope developers will appreciate it and opt to send some money our way for all the effort, or maybe for some higher-level support or for more controls, but that will *totally* optional.

TokenizedTextBox was not ready for prime time, so it didn't make it into v1.6. You still have access to it - it's just not in v1.6 stable release. I'll see to it that it is ready for the next release.

It's ok to be paranoid, but in this case there's nothing to worry about. I've told you what our plans are, and am working on following through with some pleasant surprises instead of any let-downs.

Apr 13, 2012 at 8:40 PM

That's good to hear. After the whole Red Gate/Reflector fiasco I was skeptical, even though I ultimately went ahead and paid for reflector for its visual studio integration.

I must take the time to commend Xceed, as they pioneered the free WPF grid many years ago and look forward to wear this project is going. As I stated, this is probably the first non framework control set I add to all my WPF projects.

Oct 26, 2012 at 1:28 PM

I have a query relating to the Intellectual Property of the wpf extended toolkit.

Whilst the project was under the care of Brian Lagunas, the project was truly open source with contributions welcome from all parties.  In fact I have even contributted a couple of bug fixes which were incorporated into version 1.5.0.

I still have and use a copy of these sources (1.5.0) under the Microsoft.Windows.Controls. which had no copyright notices in the source code which reflected that ther content was open source and community owned.  The details tab on the properties also claimed no ownership.

I am now looking at upgrading to v1.07 as I want to use the PropertyGrid.

Firstly, I have to completely refactor all my xaml sources as the schema has changed as well as modifying my C# code to change namespaces which is a real pain.

Secondly and more importantly, why has xceed laid claim to the intellectual property of this code.  My company has a policy which forbids use of software of which it does not own the IP.  (Community open source software was a bit of a grey area).  As xceed now claims ownership of the IP, I can no longer use it.  I may even have to rewrite large chunks of code to write out the use of v1.05.

How as xceed managed to claim ownership of WPFToolkit.extended which was previously community held.

Oct 26, 2012 at 2:27 PM

I'm really concerned about this issue. If WPF Extended Toolkit becomes a paid product, it will be a total fiasco. We can try to donate, we can try to offer help, testing, development, but the fact that a library is built up from the community and it starts to forget everything about its roots and founding and start to think in money more than in programming, the whole thing stinks.

I would only paid for libraries that are VERY specific or that offer unique capabilities. And the Extended Toolkit is quite generic and contains thinks that Microsoft should have provided with the Framework. That's why we're always using it.

Ask for donations, add Microsoft to get official in the Framework, but don't change licenses and difference between regular users and paid membership.

Just my 2 cents.

Editor
Oct 26, 2012 at 3:56 PM
Edited Oct 26, 2012 at 3:57 PM

Hi LaurenceBunnag and Superjmn:

I'd love to try to clarify a things as I see them. I'll post some general thoughts first, then review your questions above:

- Nothing has changed with regards to your rights to use this product, the license agreement you use it under, or what you can do with it.

- There's nothing Xceed can do (or even wants to, far from it) to stop you from using this in your projects, from using it in your company's projects, to change the status of the code so you can't use it, to make you pay for it, to stop community contributions, or to do any other sinister things, because the project is published under MsPL. Anyone can take the code (even the latest source which we just added Xceed DataGrid for WPF to!) and to start another "Extended WPF Toolkit" with it, published under MsPL, and try to beat us in making it even better! :)  I'll talk about the "Copyright" notice later - it's an incredibly minor issue.

- What has changed, and it really doesn't affect this open source project, is that Brian Lagunas is no longer the Copyright holder for his creation/work, and no longer the owner of the project page. You know, the code Brian created on his computer(s) before he published it here on Codeplex under the MsPL license, was his creation/work. The creator of a work can release his work under a license like MsPL while still retaining full rights for himself, such as the rights to publish his work under other licenses! With that in mind, Xceed has acquired Brian's proprietary rights, because we want to be able to be able to also provide it to people under a different license. Mainly, we want to be able to also make a commercial version that isn't MsPL. However, that does not, and cannot affect the rights Brian and Xceed have already granted everyone here on codeplex.

- The project is still open source, with contributions welcome from all parties. However, now that there are full-time developers whose all-day job is to create new controls, features, fix bugs, answer questions, and review contributions for Extended WPF Toolkit, well, we review the contributions, and try to keep the quality up (as well as ensure the code is not copied from elsewhere), so we end up re-writing any copyrighteable code or contributions our way. However, if anyone in the community didn't like anything we do (the speed of integrating contributions, the quality of the new work, anything!) then nothing stops them from taking the entire current project (latest or older ones) and adding stuff to it and also publishing it on Codeplex.

- However, Xceed is working hard to make wpftoolkit.codeplex.com the BEST version of this project. We are investing in it. We're contributing our existing hard work to it, too. We aren't contributing all our existing work and all our time in the Codeplex project, because we are keeping the most advanced features and time consuming technical support solving for our paid products, but you should see great progress (currently every month) on Extended WPF Toolkit, with new goodies, controls, etc, and some things kept for those who want to consider buying our commercial editions, or just getting support. 

Now to answer your questions:

LaurenceBunnage: I still have and use a copy of these sources (1.5.0) under the Microsoft.Windows.Controls. which had no copyright notices in the source code which reflected that ther content was open source and community owned.  The details tab on the properties also claimed no ownership.

Your rights to version 1.5.0 have not changed in any way, and since there was no copyright mentionned there, well, according to MsPL you don't need to replicate it. In later versions, Xceed added a copyright to the header of all the files in the project, so people know they are using Xceed code, and so, according to MsPL, they must preserve this copyright symbol in the source code. However, the existence of this copyright notice does not reflect whether the source code is open source and community owned. It simply informs you of who has released their rights to you under the Microsoft Public License, and the rest of the notice text informs you that the copyright holder can provide you any other kind of license you need.

LaurenceBunnage: Secondly and more importantly, why has xceed laid claim to the intellectual property of this code.  My company has a policy which forbids use of software of which it does not own the IP.  (Community open source software was a bit of a grey area).  As xceed now claims ownership of the IP, I can no longer use it.  I may even have to rewrite large chunks of code to write out the use of v1.05.

Your company has nothing to worry about, the IP is still provided to you under MsPL. You can do nearly ANYTHING with it, as long as you follow MsPL as you always did. The only difference now than before that I can think of is that you must preserve the Copyright notice in the source code, and the copyright notice displayed in the upcoming datagrid control. Conclusion: We have only laid claim to Brian's proprietary rights to the code, the rights he had in the first place to be able to publish under MsPL. Having those rights lets us do whatever we want with our copy of the source code but does not affect the codeplex copy of the source code.

LaurenceBunnageHow [h]as xceed managed to claim ownership of WPFToolkit.extended which was previously community held.

That question is a little confusing. Before, it was Brian that was the controller of this project page, and got to decide what to write on it. Now it is Xceed. The communitie's control of the page hasn't been affected. Similarly for the code itself: Before, Brian was the copyright and intellectual property owner of his work/creation, and the community had MsPL rights (which are pretty much as open as possible next to being public domain if you ask me) to that code, and nothing has changed in that regard.

superjmn: If WPF Extended Toolkit becomes a paid product, it will be a total fiasco.

WPF Extended Toolkit cannot become a paid product. It has been published, and continues to be, under MsPL. Nobody can stop it now (as far as I know), because if someone tries to close this project down, or even change the license, or sabotage it or anything, MsPL gives anyone the right to create another "Extended WPF Toolkit" project, based on any published version under MsPL so far, and bring it back to life, continue it, take it in a new direction, accept community contributions, assign editor status to anyone, etc.

What can become a paid product is another edition of WPF Extended Toolkit under another license,and only Xceed can do that. And we have, you can get it for $180 at Xceed.com, it's called "Xceed Extended WPF Toolkit", but that's totally optional - if you don't want, say, our upcoming themes (Office, Metro) for the toolkit,  or some advanced property grid feature, or don't need support, then just get the MsPL one here - which lets you do practically anything with it, use it commercially, use it in other MsPL projects, what can you not do? I can't think of anything you can't do except not remove the copyright in the source code, which changes nothing because right next to the copyright is the important thing: the fact that your rights to use this code are provided under Microsoft Public License.

superjmn: We can try to donate, we can try to offer help, testing, development, but the fact that a library is built up from the community and it starts to forget everything about its roots and founding and start to think in money more than in programming, the whole thing stinks.

I don't know what stinks. Brian wanted to move onto other things. The community is contributing far less than us. We've added new controls, fixed tons of bugs, answered tons of questions. The community has done nearly none of those things. What would you like us to do exactly?

superjmnI would only paid for libraries that are VERY specific or that offer unique capabilities.

I think we agree with you there. Which is why we are starting to open source our commercial controls with non-very-specific controls and capabilities, and adding them to this project.

superjmnAsk for donations, add Microsoft to get official in the Framework, but don't change licenses and difference between regular users and paid membership.

We never chaged licenses, and never changed anything for regular users, only made it better. We took a project which was going at speed X in 2011 and are trying to make it speed 2X. The better and more useful this project is, in my view, the more chances someone might like Xceed and then check out the rest of our stuff, or want to pay for support for the toolkit, or pay for an advanced feature in the slightly-more-powerful commercial version.

I hope I clarified everything! I'd love to hear more. Meanwhile, we have v1.8 nearly ready to publish, and it includes a new datagrid with smooth scrolling TableFlow view, background data-fetching while you are scrolling (forget about paging, it's not needed anymore), and 100% of all the base features a datagrid should have and lots of cool stuff, like group headers with navigation controls, not in any other grid. Missing are advanced stuff only, reserved for the commercial version: Master-Detail, Filter row, Excel Auto-Filtering and Export, 3D and Card views, Stat functions and rows, Print/preview. But switching to this should be a huge upgrade from Microsoft's WPF grid.

Editor
Oct 26, 2012 at 4:05 PM

Oh, one more thing: If your company is really bothered by the copyright symbol, I can get Xceed to grant you the right to remove the copyright symbol (at no charge) if it is for your company's use only and not for using it to create another open source project to compete with us. (If you want to make another open source project that competes with Extended WPF Toolkit, you can grab version 1.5.0 that has no copyright notice and fork that one. You can fork v1.7 or upcoming v1.8, too, but you still have to keep the Xceed copyright in there (and optionally add another copyright notice for new contributions).

Oct 26, 2012 at 4:32 PM
Thanks for clarification

On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 4:05 PM, Kosmatos <notifications@codeplex.com> wrote:

From: Kosmatos

Oh, one more thing: If your company is really bothered by the copyright symbol, I can get Xceed to grant you the right to remove the copyright symbol (at no charge) if it is for your company's use only and not for using it to create another open source project to compete with us. (If you want to make another open source project that competes with Extended WPF Toolkit, you can grab version 1.5.0 that has no copyright notice and fork that one. You can fork v1.7 or upcoming v1.8, too, but you still have to keep the Xceed copyright in there (and optionally add another copyright notice for new contributions).

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Editor
Oct 26, 2012 at 4:34 PM

I think I'm going to ask to have the headers changed and remove this part:

(...)

This program can be provided to you by Xceed Software Inc. under a proprietary commercial license agreement for use in non-Open Source projects.

(...)

It seems to imply that you can't use it in non-open source projects. That's not the case. It should probably say something like this instead: "If you would like to get professional technical support, or need advanced features, please check out the Plus version at http://xceed.com/Extended_WPF_Toolkit_Intro.html" and that's it.

Oct 26, 2012 at 4:48 PM
That would make things clearer

On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 4:34 PM, Kosmatos <notifications@codeplex.com> wrote:

From: Kosmatos

I think I'm going to ask to have the headers changed and remove this part:

(...)

This program can be provided to you by Xceed Software Inc. under a proprietary commercial license agreement for use in non-Open Source projects.

(...)

It seems to imply that you can't use it in non-open source projects. That's not the case. It should probably say something like this instead: "If you would like to get professional technical support, or need advanced features, please check out the Plus version at http://xceed.com/Extended_WPF_Toolkit_Intro.html" and that's it.

Read the full discussion online.

To add a post to this discussion, reply to this email (wpftoolkit@discussions.codeplex.com)

To start a new discussion for this project, email wpftoolkit@discussions.codeplex.com

You are receiving this email because you subscribed to this discussion on CodePlex. You can unsubscribe on CodePlex.com.

Please note: Images and attachments will be removed from emails. Any posts to this discussion will also be available online at CodePlex.com


Oct 26, 2012 at 11:41 PM

I'm sorry about my alarming message. And I think it's not as bad as I pointed out. Well, I'm really grateful to you, Xceed team, but my company is so small we couldn't afford more licenses. The only thought of the Extended WPT Tookit being taken apart in favor of a Plus version discourages us a lot. We're just starting, and WPF is a dark and cold world today. With your help, some of us are becoming better programmers and setting higher goals.

I had a bad experience with Communty Server (from Telligent System). I released code, I developed plugins and localized THOUSANDS of strings. Beta tested to the exhaustion… Finally they polished the product, increased the version number and the Free was never updated since then.

This is what I'm afraid of.

If you stay open-source, and we see a well designed product, we will even donate and collaborate. For example, I'm trying to make a Blend-like toolbar, and when I'm done, I will release to the public, for sure. What would I have learned without the community? Like you, and you? NOTHING.

Many of us are engineers because we love to improve, to do useful things, and we love to do it right. I have lots of hopes in this project.

Innumerable thanks for you, Xceed.